tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post74249637835888568..comments2024-03-28T05:47:54.177+00:00Comments on Philosophical Disquisitions: Should we freeze ourselves? (Index and Introduction)John Danaherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-81030255861485351132012-03-08T17:20:50.821+00:002012-03-08T17:20:50.821+00:00Bill, Gwern, and unknown,
Let's keep it civil...Bill, Gwern, and unknown,<br /><br />Let's keep it civil guys, please.<br /><br />Unknown, <br /><br />Yes, feelings of enthusiasm/bias most certainly distort analytical balance. That said, I would attribute Bill's claim of "obliviousness" more to "there's not a whole helluva lot you can do about it" than to failure to notice, or less-than-diligent consideration.<br /><br />Kinda like a regular person (non-cryonicist)living with the knowledge that death -- and a horrible death at that -- could come at any moment. Not a case of being unaware, or having inadequately considered it, but rather the more ordinary default situation of we, the delighted-to-be-alive, focusing on life and living.<br /><br />It is entirely possible that some bad outcome might confront the suspendee upon revival. Certainly, this deserves a balanced analysis. As the outcome is currently indeterminate, and stands among a whole range of possible outcomes, let's evaluate them in an orderly fashion before choosing our conclusion.jeff davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08725134091769810023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-67767105302339975702012-03-08T16:43:30.641+00:002012-03-08T16:43:30.641+00:00Very pleased to discover this undertaking of yours...Very pleased to discover this undertaking of yours. Particularly like the tone, which seems to set the stage for a civil and serious discussion. <br /><br />I've been a cryonics proponent for 20 years and a transhumanist for fifteen (longer, if you count all those years before transhumanism emerged to claim its name).jeff davishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08725134091769810023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-53997935336491731442012-02-29T19:57:10.399+00:002012-02-29T19:57:10.399+00:00Thanks for the comments. I heard about Seung's...Thanks for the comments. I heard about Seung's book, but I have not read it yet. Thanks for the suggestion. Need to actually get to work on this properly now...John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-302524884801803352012-02-27T01:46:00.313+00:002012-02-27T01:46:00.313+00:00Sebastian Seung has some interesting stuff on the ...Sebastian Seung has some interesting stuff on the feasibility of cryonics in his book Connectome.nicholas.agarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08344118570886236615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-73823038818403813032012-02-24T01:53:05.395+00:002012-02-24T01:53:05.395+00:00Thank you for doing this. I'm looking forward ...Thank you for doing this. I'm looking forward to it.Lukehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03839692078152193518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-73445768208155924482012-02-13T10:52:27.121+00:002012-02-13T10:52:27.121+00:00Yes, well that might be a function of the source I...Yes, well that might be a function of the source I'm working from here. I think Thrasymachus (above) has one of the better anti-life extension arguments out there (there are others too, but it depends on whether we want to lump all life-extension technologies in with cryopreservation. I think it would be best not to do that).John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-89425927230684022592012-02-13T10:49:26.493+00:002012-02-13T10:49:26.493+00:00Yeah, that might work better, particularly since t...Yeah, that might work better, particularly since this will be analysed as a decision problem. I'll consider revising the structure of the presentation as I go along.John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-73351956035841143712012-02-13T10:47:04.929+00:002012-02-13T10:47:04.929+00:00Well, that should be cool. I might discuss it with...Well, that should be cool. I might discuss it with you over email or something before then. It's probably the best anti-argument I've come across, but I have some concerns.John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-53640154377299704732012-02-13T02:20:22.557+00:002012-02-13T02:20:22.557+00:00Feelings of enthusiasm cause people to strongly fa...Feelings of enthusiasm cause people to strongly favor ideas that support their fantasies, and to discount ideas that are a "buzz-kill." In fact a "go, go, go" mentality is synonymous with enthusiasm. <br /><br />Perhaps "oblivious" is too strong a word. I'll soften it to say that given the nature of enthusiasm, cryonic enthusiasts tend to underestimate probability of experiencing a really shitty outcome.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16090513430826087719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-6758882899709630112012-02-13T01:39:58.421+00:002012-02-13T01:39:58.421+00:00Of course, http://xkcd.com/989/Of course, http://xkcd.com/989/David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142997170025811780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-23372100346901230552012-02-13T01:31:35.603+00:002012-02-13T01:31:35.603+00:00The categories could be organized. For instance:
...The categories could be organized. For instance:<br /><br />I. Costs:<br /><br />a. High magnitude of costs:<br />The High Cost Argument<br />The Opportunity Cost Argument<br />The Environmental Cost Argument<br />The Better Causes Argument<br />The Organ Donation Argument<br />The Slippery Slope Argument<br /><br />b. High chances of such costs:<br />(High for most except perhaps "The Slippery Slope Argument" and "The Environmental Cost Argument", variably short of probability 1 for the others.)<br /><br /><br />II. Benefits:<br /><br />a. Low benefits:<br />The Non-Physicalist Argument<br />The “Revival Before Cure” Argument<br />The "Life will be Boring" Argument<br />The Loneliness Argument<br /><br />b. Low chances of any benefits:<br />The Unproven Technology Argument<br />The “Revival is Unlikely” Argument<br /><br />c. Negative consequences:<br />The Death-Definition Problem<br /><br />d. Chances of such consequences:Brianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11958115795753496384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-81236357435234358812012-02-13T01:30:22.133+00:002012-02-13T01:30:22.133+00:00Entirely my own, as far as I am aware (although I ...Entirely my own, as far as I am aware (although I need to look at population ethics stuff in greater depth). I'm going to be spending my summer at the Uehiro centre for applied ethics in oxford to expand/improve it. So it might be worth waiting a bit until then!Thrasymachushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14406462333873084622noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-32293777182029419962012-02-13T01:28:25.019+00:002012-02-13T01:28:25.019+00:00Bill specifically accused advocates of being '...Bill specifically accused advocates of being 'oblivious' (as do you, 'blindly' or 'immersed'), so yes, that's *exactly* what he's doing.<br /><br />But feel free to think that you are more thoughtful and insightful on the topic than the advocates. Don't let me change your mind or cause you to think of some (any) counter-arguments...gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-61478002307553220492012-02-13T01:06:01.479+00:002012-02-13T01:06:01.479+00:00It would be absurd to think this is an original th...It would be absurd to think this is an original thought - nice strawman argument, gwern. <br /><br />My point was that enthusiasts seem oblivious to the risk. The fact that you're trying to stifle discussion of this issue (calling it "failure mode") suggests that you're immersed in future fantasy. <br /><br />Feel free to blindly subject yourself to an unknown future. I prefer to be more thoughtful about my choices.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16090513430826087719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-13190891157008729942012-02-12T23:09:44.869+00:002012-02-12T23:09:44.869+00:00Looking forward to this series. Never even conside...Looking forward to this series. Never even considered ethical arguments against it, only scientific arguments against the possibility. Looking at your index doesn't seem promising for the anti people at first glance though.Andrew https://www.blogger.com/profile/08220029097881242056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-27618922196899749752012-02-12T22:21:58.629+00:002012-02-12T22:21:58.629+00:00> One of the big "anti" arguments was...> One of the big "anti" arguments was that people are shirking their responsibility to contribute to human progress, and just trying to cash in on that progress (which may fit into the "opportunity cost" argument).<br /><br />Pfft. And how are cryonicists paying for it all?gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-59536471318819015922012-02-12T22:21:56.278+00:002012-02-12T22:21:56.278+00:00Yeah, only post-natal freezing. I've changed t...Yeah, only post-natal freezing. I've changed the definition to reflect that, adding the word "mature" before "human body". Admittedly, that's still a little opaque, but I don't want to go all the way to post-natal just yet and I don't want to say "adult" either since I can imagine situations in which a pro-cryonicist might argue for childhood cryopreservation.<br /><br />Thanks for the Larry Niven suggestion. I know there's plenty of sci-fi out there dealing with the topic. I've also been looking at some of David Brin's recent scribblings on this topic, apparently his new novel (due out this summer) will be dealing with transhumanist themes.John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-2014262235962704522012-02-12T22:10:53.021+00:002012-02-12T22:10:53.021+00:00Just to be clear about this, are you only speaking...Just to be clear about this, are you only speaking of preserving post-natal (or even adult) persons? I take it that you are not focusing on the freezing of gametes and embryos as part of fertility treatment.<br /><br />If the academic literature is sparse, you may need to resort to SciFi. Larry Niven wrote several stories about cryonic suspension, which included arguments for and against the practice (or particular forms thereof). One of the big "anti" arguments was that people are shirking their responsibility to contribute to human progress, and just trying to cash in on that progress (which may fit into the "opportunity cost" argument).<br /><br />SciFi often depicts cryonic suspension as a tool for interstellar travel, which would have different implications than just using it as a way to pass time on Earth. But it is probably less ethically interesting for that reason.Ricketsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02579799843541826447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-9815543874999146092012-02-12T21:33:45.975+00:002012-02-12T21:33:45.975+00:00Yeah, I might just do one entry covering all the l...Yeah, I might just do one entry covering all the less-significant "what if X happened...?" arguments since they seem to suffer from similar problems.John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-60274048255235139242012-02-12T19:28:54.928+00:002012-02-12T19:28:54.928+00:00Bill: *of course* advocates have considered that o...Bill: *of course* advocates have considered that objection.<br /><br />Your objection, by the way, falls into the old pattern: 'I know tons of smart people and geeks have pondered & debated cryonics for half a century, but nevertheless, without looking anything up, I'm going to make a criticism I think is novel despite spending perhaps 10 seconds thinking it up!'<br /><br />I really hate that failure mode.gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-2345112913108200182012-02-12T19:25:55.776+00:002012-02-12T19:25:55.776+00:00Hi Bill, I think that's an interesting possibi...Hi Bill, I think that's an interesting possibility. It's not one brought up by Shaw in his article but it might be worth including at some point (possibly after the "Revival is unlikely" argument). I suspect the issue here will be the relative probabilities of different possible outcome. In principle, virtually anything could happen to you once your revived, the question is how likely are they and are they enough to offset the potential benefits of revivification.<br /><br />As for your Firefox problem, I'm afraid I've no idea what caused it. I'm just using the default commenting system on blogger (which was recently updated).John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-79301941824416856772012-02-12T19:15:05.392+00:002012-02-12T19:15:05.392+00:00I'm not sure if this has been considered for t...I'm not sure if this has been considered for this series. Most cryonic advocates seem oblivious to the possibility of awakening to find themselves permanently and secretly enslaved as a research subject, with no rights, freedoms, or hope of self-terminating their miserable existence. <br /><br />There are countless non-human animals and many human victims of Nazi doctors who can attest to the horrors of that kind of existence. I can imagine many future scenarios where this outcome would be more likely than benevolent treatment. <br /><br />I look forward to following this series. <br /><br />P.S. I was unable to post this comment using Firefox v9.0.1. The option to prove that I'm "human" briefly flashed and then disasppeared. IE worked fine.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-35556296992366700442012-02-12T17:31:56.536+00:002012-02-12T17:31:56.536+00:00Unfortunately, from even a skim reading of the Chr...Unfortunately, from even a skim reading of the Chronopause page I get more discouraged from getting into the science side in too much depth (at least for the time being).John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-416333957610333852012-02-12T17:25:14.886+00:002012-02-12T17:25:14.886+00:00Well, I'm really a tyro at cryonics matters; I...Well, I'm really a tyro at cryonics matters; I should finish that page because Darwin sent me some pretty in-depth materials from when he was comparing plastination with cryonics. <br /><br />(Suffice it to say that if you ever invoke the science side of things - or the historical part, like the dishonesty of the cryobiologists - and you aren't citing Mike Darwin or his Chronopause articles, you are probably doing it wrong.)gwernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18349479103216755952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1780806945960886534.post-4237329908487209822012-02-12T17:21:49.710+00:002012-02-12T17:21:49.710+00:00Yes, I read your Prezi version. I'm hoping to ...Yes, I read your Prezi version. I'm hoping to consider your kind of argument at some stage as well. I thought it was very clever. Did you take it from somewhere (or were you inspired by a particular author) or is it entirely your own creation?John Danaherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06761686258507859309noreply@blogger.com